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I'm with....
... Ironman (pro-registration). 17%  17%  [ 1 ]
...Captain America (anti-registration). 67%  67%  [ 4 ]
...anyone who stomps Kreshna's testicles. 17%  17%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 6
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:19 am 
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Well, I'm not sure whether this should be posted in "Fantasy" or "Morality/Philosophy", so I put it here to be safe.

I'm actually inspired by Marvel Comic's civil war series. So, regardless of the comic's storyline (regardless of the 'Stanford incident', etc), do you think that superhumans, heroes or villains alike, should be registered? Do you think that the registration is immoral, because it violates the rights of the superhumans? Or do you think the registration is necessarry, because superpowered humans should be monitored and watched due to their potential danger to the society?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:50 am 
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I wouldn't vote on the poll because I'm of the opinion that superheroes should be registered privately and secretly, rather than the public registration seen in Marvel Comics. Out-in-the-open registration would violate the right to privacy of many superhumans, while private registration would allow superheroes to keep their secret identities while the government can still keep a tab on their activities.

It allows a mix of public safety and superhuman privacy... a win-win situation.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:58 am 
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i do not believe that superheros should be registred.

neither should villains.

it would kinda suck due to the secret identity clause and stupid stuff like that. no one is supposed to atually know who they are...

usuallly.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:45 am 
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Stomps testicles because that stupid poll made me read the wiki on the steaming pile of horseshit that apprently is DC's Infinite Crisis and its aftermath but...
Insufficient data.
Basic registration as such isn't an inherently bad idea, if only for medical purposes (20 minutes 'after' you started the drip is a really bad time to find out that Captain Obvious is majorly allergic against antibiotics).
The question is does the Act stop there and is the registration to be with the government or an independent institute?
What does said Act of yours actually entail, KAN?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:04 am 
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Against. Only in the case where they commit a crime more serious than getting a traffic ticket should they be registered.

The problem with any form of registration of different ethnic groups, and we can for these purposes consider them an ethnic group, is that it has led to genocide. It would make it to easy to haul them of to "work camps" or disappear them in the middle of the night. Looking ahead maybe 2 administrations is hard. That is why we should look back. What has happened every time an ethnic group was forced to identify themselves with the government as a member of a disfavored ethnic group? What has happened every time an ethnic group was treated differently by the government? It is a slippery slope which has made itself plain throughout history. When this stuff happens people are displaced from their homes, put in camps, murdered. No. Never Again. I dont care how powerful these individuals are, they dont deserve that.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:06 pm 
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Wouldn't this be more akin to gun owner regsteration CT? You're not regsterating them for being a enthic group, you're doing it because they have the ability to cause alot of death and damage and they can do it easier if the law has no way of holding them responsible.

How much luck as the police department had in arresting superheroes who get outlawed? Hell how much luck do they have against villians if they don't have Superpowered back up?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:11 pm 
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frigidmagi wrote:
Wouldn't this be more akin to gun owner regsteration CT?

On that same idea, here in New York (I don't know about any other states), if you receive a black belt in most martial arts, you have to register yourself as a deadly weapon. I don't have a problem with that myself, since you are dangerous, and thus, I would have no problem with a superhero registration either.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:14 pm 
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The great irony for me is the ones most likely to be actually dangerous to you are the ones who will never volunteerary reister themselves XV.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:04 pm 
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I'm not sure I like the gun registration NOR the ethnic group anology.
For gun registration (or XV's black belt) that's something at least theoratically anybody can go out and get. Thus if it gets out that you have one there isn't going to be much in the way of public outcry, nor is their much incentive for someone to take advantage of the fact that you've got a gun. You're also not much more of a threat to the rest of humanity as the rest of humanity can be, and one that the police and military of your country are well equipped to deal with.
Superpowers are a slightly different matter. Last I checked you can't go to your local 'Powers'R'Us' and buy superspeed, invulnerability and the ability to fly ('Why don't you try our Kryptonian Entry Package? It includes heat vision and super strength on top of that and is only 19,99 more!') and there's LOTS of incentive to take advantage of said powers , be it by the government or other factions that find out your secret identity (it's not like that hasn't been done a billion times in the comics already).
I don't like the ETHINIC GROUP analogy because while the real world ethnic discrimination is wrong, it is directed at groups that differ from the discriminating party only in minuscule detail. Blacks, japanese, Muslims, you name it are no more of an inherent danger to society than any other ethnic group. There are metahumans who could take over the world without so much as breaking a sweat just as long as the other metas sit back (and for some of them in spite of that).
Plus at least to me, calling all metas an ethnic group because they have powers is equivalent to calling all humans an ethnic group because they have a skin colour. Which varies a lot LESS than those powers do.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:41 pm 
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frigidmagi wrote:
Wouldn't this be more akin to gun owner regsteration CT? You're not regsterating them for being a enthic group, you're doing it because they have the ability to cause alot of death and damage and they can do it easier if the law has no way of holding them responsible.

How much luck as the police department had in arresting superheroes who get outlawed? Hell how much luck do they have against villians if they don't have Superpowered back up?


It is different. I would note that I am not in favor of gun registration either. FOr similar reasons. It gives the government a list of law abiding citizens to confiscate guns from should they decide to do it.

It is different because while a person is born a mutant, or otherwise has it happen upon them against their will in most cases. They are a distinct group of people who are subject to prejudice and bigotry, just like a distinct ethnic group like jews. They can be scapegoated just as easily. And will be oppressed just as fast.

The ability of the authorities to oppress metahumans depends on the type of superpowers you are dealing with. If we are in a more realistic setting, then the ability of the police to deal with metahumans will be relatively simple. SHoot them until they die or give up, if we arent, well it will depend on the metahuman.

However, if we apply a utilitarian calculus, there is no benefit from registration of all metahumans. The individuals who have no intention of doing anything wrong will register. The ones who plan on doing bad things will not. When the unregistered do bad things, there will be public outcry. The good mutants who are now registered will be further restricted due to the scapegoating, and probably harmed. It will probably start with a curfew, and job restrictions, and go from there. While the mutants who do not register face no such restrictions anyway, by nature of not being registered.

There is no benefit to mutant registration. It can ONLY cause suffering. It is the folley of people who think legistlation can actually solve problems like violence. You cant. If you make laws which restrict individuals from doing X, but someone wants to do X regardless of the law, they will still do X, and probably break other laws to do X.
It is like making more gun laws to stop school shootings. As if the kid who wants to kill 50 people will really be stoped by the fact that he needs to register his firearm. You may be able to say, ban all guns and by some miracle keep criminals from getting them on the black market, but you cant ban people from being mutants. Unless you want to send human beings to death camps.

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Last edited by Comrade Tortoise on Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:16 pm 
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We registers cars and guns for public safety and accountability reasons. In those cases privacy rights come in second to the public good. Same deal with a private investigator or a medical professional. We sure as hell should register being able to dish out as much damage as armoured compay.

Superheroes run around in masks using potentially deadly force. Even Spider Man or Batman, not the heaviest hitters by any means, could leave a trail of bodies if they fuck up or just flip out.

That being said, the list should be absolutely confidential and in the Marvel universe, I would probably be against it. The governments anti-mutant activities (Sentinels, Project Widewake, etcetera) is both recent and highly disturbing.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:40 pm 
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Spiderman is able to bench press a semi at the very least (the 1980s RPG has him able to lift a lear jet). I think he's in a much higher league then most give him credit for.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:34 pm 
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Spiderman once caught a garbage truck thrown at him by the Hobgoblin (used webbing as padding and it still hurt like a son of a bitch). His could break skulls and pulp organs easily. With his super speed and spider sense he could leave a horrific trail of carnage.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:17 pm 
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I think the Radley-Gold act of my own Heroes thread is one of the best ways I've heard of doing the registration if it had to be done. If you're a villian and you're caught, you're registered and tagged. If you choose to fight crime as an independent, you're registered. If you work for a government agency or military branch, you know there's a papertrail a mile long.

And it's all ran by a governmental office that is accountable to no one really. The meta registration database is highly protected and secure and is ran in such a manner that identities of the costumed dogooders are almost impossible to get and getting data on villians still requires a buttload of redtape and paperwork.

Imperfect, but it works.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:23 pm 
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I am going to point out that our government cannot even keep our social security numbers, or home address confidential. The idea that they would be able to keep the mutant list confidential is laughable. It will not happen. All it will take is a beurocrat with an axe to grind, or a clever hacker. Lets hope the government uses unix...

My point on prejudice and oppression still stands. It WILL happen. Human nature is human nature. No matter how much we may want to look away and pretend it wont happen, people do not change, not on large scales. There is going to be an outbreak of supercrime. It is going to happen. People will be angry, and they will scapegoat someone. The list, intentinal or no, will be public, as I said, governments are two things, incompetant and self serving. Insert witch burnings.

Of course, if we are going with the "trail of carnage" model, what use will a list be? How will knowing a supervillians identity help bring him to justice? It would be useless for accountability purposes. What are we going to do? Make it a crime to give birth to a supervillian and go after his family to punish him?

It someone flips out and vaporizes his school, we can use the list to do what exactly?

Such a list has only one purpose. As I have already outlined.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:26 pm 
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Moved, because it doesn't fit here. BAM!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:41 pm 
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Tortoise, that's a load of shit. If someone in a mask with superhuman strength kills four peopel in a city and there are two people with superhuman strength in the region at the time, you can damn well bet that'll help solve a crime. The only way the list won't help is if you catch him or her red handed at the time, which doesn't happen in most crimes. Criminals are usually caught after the fact or in stings, situations for which lists would quite useful.

Your government list arguement is also specious. Your arguement relies on the assumption that 1) they'll be sloppy 2) the cost of any errors is greater than the benefits of keeping a list. Yet I don't see you arguing that cars shouldn't be registered or that drivers shouldn't be liscenced. Or physicians. You've assumed that the only possible purpose of the list is genocide, and then you have the gall to give a completely dishonest dismissal of the law enforcement use of such a list.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:51 pm 
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Quote:
Tortoise, that's a load of shit. If someone in a mask with superhuman strength kills four peopel in a city and there are two people with superhuman strength in the region at the time, you can damn well bet that'll help solve a crime. The only way the list won't help is if you catch him or her red handed at the time, which doesn't happen in most crimes. Criminals are usually caught after the fact or in stings, situations for which lists would quite useful.


And? If a person is a superhuman, of the type you reffered to in the "trail of carnage" model, the fact that the cops know who the criminal is, is irrelevant. They cant bring him to justice. SImply put, if he is so dangerous to society that he needs to be put on a list, what the hell is the use of knowing who he is? The cops cant do anything. So what is the benefit? SUrely he will leave evidence at the scene in the form of DNA, or fibers. Or then there is good old fashioned police work. You know, who would have a motive to kill those four people. They will have to do all of the above just to get an indictment on the charges.

Simply put, and I will go into exhaustive if somewhat poorly organized detail, the cost of enforcing the registration, and keeping up the beurocracy which maintains it, will not be outweighed by the very few crimes it helps solve. It would be more cost effective to just spend the extra man hours on the police forces to identify the criminals in standard ways.

Of course then there is the fact that when people snap, they tend to do so in places where they are familiar, you know, like school, or the post office. This means people will recognize them. "Oh God... he was wearing a mask but I knew it was Marty! I recognized his voice and his chizled superstrength chest!"

If it's domestic, the list doesnt help for shit, because people the victim knows are automatically suspects. "Well Jim, the ME said it would take someone with enough strength to swing a train like a tennis racket to do that to Mrs. McKinnes' face"
"Wasnt there a guy holding up a truck when we got there?"
"Yeah"


If it is a moustache twirling supervillian or supergang member, my argument holds without me elaborating further, because they WONT GET ON THE LIST. Sort of like how most homicides are commited with unregistered firearms last I checked.

In fact, lets take a look at most crimes.

WHite collar crime: Stuff like embezlement, fraud, etc. There is no way to know if the person involved had superpowers. List=useless.

Various forms of larceny, arson etc: No way to know. List=useless.

Violent crimes

Now we may be getting somewhere. But if the mutant doesnt use his power in the commision of the crime, the list is useless.

lets start with murder and work out way down

Gangland warfare: culprits known

Serial killers: No way to know about powers until after the guy is caught

Domestic: culprit known or found with policework. If the husband can shoot lasers from his eyes and lasers were the murder weapon... yeah

Killer for hire:A smart assassin will not use his his power, or will have a power which is unknowable.

Random snap: MIGHT be useful, depending on the nature of the snap and the power used. But these are rare occurences and when someone snaps, there is not typically any doubt about who the culprit is, even if they do wear a mask.

Felony Murder: Depends. But typically I dont suspect the list will be useful, as people who kill in the commision of another felony are often criminals and would thus almost by definition not be on the list.

Rape and molestation:
Good luck getting it reported

Serial rapists: unless the power is used in the commission of the crime, which it probably wouldnt be because serial rapists are like serial killers in their lack of sloppyness, there is no way the list will be useful in the vast vast majority of cases.

Date Rape: Little doubt exists as to the identity of the culprit. List is useless.

Random power/control rape: these cases are rarely even reported, let alone solved. But unless the perp used his power in the commission of the crime, and the victim knew it, there is no way the list will be informative

Armed robbery: Maybe if the perp used his power. Armed robbery may be the only case where a superhero list may be informative. But these are usually solved by brute police work anyway

Assault: The victim typically knows the attacker, or could identify them.

I really am not seeing how the benefit outweighs the risk

Quote:
Your arguement relies on the assumption that 1) they'll be sloppy 2) the cost of any errors is greater than the benefits of keeping a list.


Look Cat, someone can steal my identity for what... 15 USD, by walking down to the county clerks office and getting ALL my personal records. ALL OF THEM. Address, phone number, moms maiden name. All of it. SO forgive me if I dont have much confidence in government to keep my private info private.

Keeping that list confidential will fail for the same reason staying conspiracy theories are all bunk. Someone will eventually talk. A disaffected employee will leak the list, a Stormfront.org racist bigot will hack the list. No matter how hard you try, a centralized database (which is the only way such registration could ever be useful to law enforcement) WILL be hacked eventually. Or portions of it will be. It is not a matter of sloppyness.

Second, I do content that the risks associated with maintaining a list of non-criminal supers would in fact outweigh the benefit. And it just so happens that I have all of human history backing me up.

The first or second wave of supercrime from the local supergangs will spark public outcry. Afterall, what good is the list if they dont use it? This will spark a series of legistlative efforts limiting the listed supers in order to appease the frightened public. But how will it be enforced? The list of course. Their will have to be some sort of recipt afterall. You know, to prove you registered. So what kind of laws will we be looking at?

Well what is one of the first things municipalities do to curb crime by a specific group of people? Curfews! They do it with teens, why not mutants? Restrict their freedom to travel at certain times and the politicians get to look tough on mutant crime.

Well, after that doesnt work, more stringent restrictions will be placed. Travel restrictions, monitoring devices, perhaps? The list is not informative for law enforcement but in the most outside and narrow of cases. What else are they going to do with it? Maintain a giant beurocracy for no reason? No. They will create crimes for mutants to commit.

Comparing having the audacity to exist with a car, or being a doctor is a non-sequiter. They are just not comparable. The police can use your car registration to solve things like moving violations, and get a stolken car back to its owner. A doctor does need to certify that they are competant and good at what they do. In a case even resembing the real world, the cops will not be able to use a registry to help solve even most mutant-commited crimes! Let alone convict a mutant in a court free of kangaroos. Nor can they (mutants) be banned from existing if they are not very good at turning themselves invisible.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:09 am 
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There's a lot of b.s. from you Tortoise. The fact is that DNA and fibers are useless until you have someone to match them against. Knowing that it was a guy in a black costume who calls himself Tiger is also fucking useless. Dangerous things like guns, cars, and planes are liscenced so that they are 1) used responsibly 2) to lessen the ease with which they are used criminally.

None of your objections cover any of that. Moreover it shows a serious lack of concern for the public well being. Super powers are far more potentially dangerous than gun or car ownership and it is unlikely that they will manifest without some witnesses at the early stages. That you think someone should have powers more destructive than a howitzer and not even have supervised training to use them responsibly is fairly damning of the recklessness of your position.

Provide evidence for your unliscenced firearms claim


As for your protestations about government knowing information, they government already has a lot of information on you and for good reason. That information can be stolen is irrelevant. Anything can be stolen. It isn't sufficient reason not to do something. The government keeps info on you to make sure you are a liscenced to use the vehicle you are driving, that you have paid your taxes, that you aren't a criminal that can't work in certain fields, and so on. This information is much more serious and entirely legitimate. That you would subordinate the public welfare to personal paranoia is not a responsible position.

As for your cute dodge on health records, tough. My brother is a schizophrenic. Genes plus enviroment. No crime committed. The government knows that and thats government business. Its not as advantagious as super powers, which I'm sure he would prefer, but that's the short straw he drew.

EDIT: So whether its by birth or profession or recreation, there are some things that are public business. The mere chance of data theft or your distrust of the government does not change that in any way shape or form.

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Last edited by Cynical Cat on Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:10 am 
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CT, hate to break it to you but all guns sold in the US are registered to the buyers. Unfortunately, many of these guns are later resold or stolen, thus losing the papertrail. However, those lists *do* work.

Not too long ago a WVian woman was arrested for purchasing guns that were shipped up to NewYork and used in a crime where a cop was shot. How did they find her (and use her in a sting to catch the NY gang member using her as a mule)? By the serial number on the gun to track where the gun was purchased and by whom. The woman, an addict doing it for the drugs, is in jail on a reduced sentence. The shop owner was fined and his seller's liscense 'under review' (don't know if it was pulled or not). The ganger was arrested in WV, and then sent up to NY to face the more serious charges they had on him up there.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:30 pm 
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A quick jump in but Tev I can tell that you are saddly mistaken. Back home I could lay my hands on AK-47s that did not exist legally speaking. Now Deceased members of my family bought several illegal military grade weapons a while back (before my birth). Due to the nature of our southern border, the disregard of certain populations for law and the rather sad state of our port security there are a high number of weapons within the United States that are not suppose to be here and are very illegal.

I have no clue how of those are used to commit crimes and how many of those are sitting in a hidden chest in someone's basement.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:52 pm 
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And how, exactly, does the existance of illegal guns invalidate her ladyship's point about the registration of (at least originally) legal guns helping in if not preventing, than at least solving gun-related crimes?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:53 pm 
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Batman wrote:
And how, exactly, does the existance of illegal guns invalidate her ladyship's point about the registration of (at least originally) legal guns helping in if not preventing, than at least solving gun-related crimes?


Especially since most guncrimes are committed with civilian handguns, not military rifles.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:02 pm 
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1: She said All Guns, I know from first hand experience this is not the case.

2: I was providing examples I knew to be true. If military rifles can be sold illegally without government knowledge, it is only logical to suppose that civilian pistols may be sold as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:23 pm 
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frigidmagi wrote:
1: She said All Guns, I know from first hand experience this is not the case.

She said 'CT, hate to break it to you but all guns sold in the US are registered to the buyers' which obviously refers to LEGALLY sold guns. Who the hell registers ILLEGALLY sold ones?
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2: I was providing examples I knew to be true. If military rifles can be sold illegally without government knowledge, it is only logical to suppose that civilian pistols may be sold as well.

Absolutely. A fact that her ladyship herself brought up in her post. Does not change the fact that keeping track of originally legally sold guns DOES help solving gun-related crimes, at least to an extent.

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